Talk:World Professional Association for Transgender Health

Reversion of objective edit

Raladic, you reverted my addition of important criticism of this organization from 2 very reliable sources, The Economist and The New York Times. In particular, The Economist describes how WPATH leaders interfered with the production of systematic reviews that they had commissioned from Johns Hopkins University. Also, both The Economist and NYT report that WPATH removed minimum ages for the treatment of children under the pressure from Dr. Rachel Levine. [1] [2] [3] These are not some fringe sources, but well respected publications. You wrote that there is a consensus not to include this information. Could you please explain where the consensus was reached not to include into this particular article the information about the John Hopkins story and WPATH being criticized for developing recommendations under pressure from an official? Regarding WP:CRITS essay, which is not a rule, we can incorporate the above information under a different title or make it part of another section of the article. It does not mean that notable criticism should not be mentioned in the article. Sean Waltz O'Connell (talk) 06:53, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

You may read previous discussions in the archives. Keep in mind one of Wikipedia's core policies of WP:NOTNEWS and as it appears, the Economist piece was not picked up by any other reliable source, so it doesn't appear to have had enduring notability and thus is undue for inclusion.

Further, as I already stated in the reversion as well, some of this criticism on age centers on the Standards of Care, which is a publication from WPATH, and so the content (if due) belongs there. And you will find the discussion around age is already included in the article there in the SOC8 section. Raladic (talk) 15:25, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your response.

I reviewed the discussions in the archives but couldn’t find any previous mention of the Johns Hopkins story. It’s also worth noting that The Economist article has been referenced and discussed by several other mainstream media outlets, indicating its notability.

For example, an op-ed in The Washington Post directly cites the Economist article:

"Last week, The Economist reported that other documents unsealed in the Alabama case suggest something has gone wrong at WPATH itself, which reportedly commissioned evidence reviews from Johns Hopkins University, then tried to meddle with the result. Internal communications suggest that research should be 'thoroughly scrutinized to ensure that publication does not negatively affect the provision of transgender health care in the broadest sense.' Now, assuming this is true, I’m sure WPATH sincerely believed it was doing its best for gender-dysphoric kids. But such meddling makes it harder to find out whether the group is right about that."

[4]

Similarly, an op-ed from The New York Times notes:

"The World Professional Association for Transgender Health... blocked publication of a Johns Hopkins systematic review it had commissioned that also found scant evidence in favor of the gender-affirming approach. Recently released emails show that WPATH leaders told researchers that their work should 'not negatively affect the provision of transgender health care in the broadest sense.'"

[5]

While op-eds aren’t used as primary sources in Wikipedia articles, the fact that this story has garnered attention from The Washington Post, The New York Times, and The Guardian highlights its significance:

"Evidence has since emerged suggesting that WPATH actually tried to suppress the systematic reviews that it commissioned from Johns Hopkins University because the results undermined its preferred approach... WPATH was pressured by the Biden administration to remove minimum ages for treatment from its 2022 standards of care."

[The Guardian, August 2024 - https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/aug/04/bma-stance-on-puberty-blockers-defies-first-principle-of-medicine-first-do-no-harm-cass-review]

Furthermore, The New York Sun also covered the story:

"Wpath wielded a heavy hand after it in 2018 commissioned from evidence-based medicine experts at Johns Hopkins University a series of systematic literature reviews... After some of the Hopkins teams’ findings raised concerns among Wpath leadership that they might 'negatively affect the provision of transgender health care,' Wpath compromised the independence of the Hopkins researchers."

[6]

Given this widespread coverage, it seems inaccurate to claim that The Economist article lacks enduring notability, as the information provided by the Economist article has been referenced or discussed by several other mainstream media outlets, indicating its notability.

Regarding the age limits, the information that WPATH removed these under political pressure was not available during the discussions on this page in early June 2024. Therefore, there couldn’t have been a consensus against including information that wasn’t known at the time. The key issue here is not the appropriateness of the age limits but rather that WPATH’s decisions may have been influenced by political pressure, a concern reported by both The Economist and The New York Times. Sean Waltz O'Connell (talk) 06:14, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

As you said yourself and are aware, we generally discount opinion pieces, especially when it appears that the authors may have an agenda that has been called out before, as for the Guardian article (who itself has a strong anti-trans bias, there has been discussions of starting a RSN for its reliability on the topic), it cites SEGM on this, a known anti-trans hate group as tracked by the Southern Poverty Law Center, so we take that reporting with a large grain of salt as those motivations are very questionable.

So, it looks like it may be a concerted smear campaign effort by transphobic groups, which is why it appears not have been picked up by more neutral news organizations and thus is WP:UNDUE at this point in time as enduring notability of it is questionable and Wikipedia is WP:NOTNEWS. Raladic (talk) 16:25, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Opinion pieces were cited not in order to be used in the article, but to show that the information provided by the Economist was picked up by other mainstream media, who dedicated space to its discussion. "Smear campaign" is your personal, subjective opinion. So far no serious source accused the Economist and NYT of engaging in a smear campaign on this topic. It is highly unlikely that liberal news outlets such as WP, NYT or the Guardian could be accused of anti-trans bias. Especially since there is little to no ideological incentive for such a news outlet to do so. Objective criticism can only be considered biased, if the one making the presumption is doing so through a subjective lens. And neutral reporting requires presentation of all points of view, that is what a professional reporter would do. However I do not see that the Guardian cited SEGM, it only linked to a repost of the Economist article at the SEGM website, maybe because the original Economist article is paywalled. The Economist and NYT are highly respected news outlets, known for fact checking and accuracy, and are listed as generally reliable at WP:RSP. If the information got so much attention in the mainstream media, it shows the enduring notability, and it seems clear that WP:UNDUE doesn't apply here. Sean Waltz O'Connell (talk) 09:12, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

If there are no further objections or valid concerns to address, I will proceed with reinstating the deleted information to the article. Sean Waltz O'Connell (talk) 08:05, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

I have objected, with our policy-based reasoning for why it is undue. Opinion pieces are not "picked up by other mainstream media", especially not when the authors have questionable motives as I explained. Also yes, the Guardian did cite SEGM as that is what they linked to for the part you're trying to add, and SEGM is not RS. You questioning above that "maybe because its paywalled" is WP:OR and irrelevant, they cited it to SEGM.

And per WP:RSOPINION, opinion pieces are not generally reliable because they usually do not get fact checked by the newspaper, they just get published, so they can not be used for statements of facts.

It appears this is your first time editing a WP:Contentious topic, I have just placed an introduction of what that mean on your talk page. Note that on contentious topics, special extra care has to be taken, with strict adherence to our policies, which again, as I explained means that this piece is WP:UNDUE due to the policies already cited as wikipedia is WP:NOTNEWS. Raladic (talk) 15:19, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Note to other editors, this was taken by the other user to Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard#World Professional Association for Transgender Health where it was found similarly undue by several editors for a variety of policy-based reasons. Raladic (talk) 18:08, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

The truth is it was dismissed by several editors that argue that anything that doesn’t agree with their preconceived notions as opinion and undue. The articles were not opinions. The editors are biased. I can’t recall a single time they’ve allowed anything that doesn’t align with what they think transgender medicine should be. If you look at their bios, they have personal reasons for squelching any conversation. It doesn’t do Wikipedia any good to have such blatant bias. PerseusMeredith (talk) 23:55, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

If you want to argue, bring it up on WP:NPOVN and answer the specific points. Until then, Raladic probably has their way. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 23:58, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Friendly reminder not to attack other editors by casting aspersions.

If you have policy based arguments on the specific article, you may bring them at the notice board that I linked, but otherwise please refrain from accusing editors of bias. Raladic (talk) 00:28, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

I think this clearly should be included. Any other page, the NY Times and Economist articles would be enough to include a reference. This is whitewashing. PerseusMeredith (talk) 17:41, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

If I'm not mistaken, sources like The Economist and The New York Times are listed as credible by Wikipedia, why cant information from said sources be used in this article?--JonJ937 (talk) 13:00, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

you really don't understand why? wikipedia organzational capture. People with a bias label everything else a bias. 24.63.3.107 (talk) 15:42, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

The Economist has a long history of false reporting on trans issues. I don't think its appropriate to cite them as a source. HenrikHolen (talk) 15:21, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

This presumption is unfounded on this platform. The reliability of The Economist is well-established, since it was confirmed at WP:RSPSS, where it’s listed as a reliable source, including on trans-related topics, following broad community consensus in an RFC: [7] This designation affirms that the source meets Wikipedia's standards (as a reputable source). Sean Waltz O'Connell (talk) 10:47, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

In light of this ongoing topic of conversation, kindly, draw attention to the subject of recent controversies involving the organization referenced, which has been highlighted in the British medical Journal (BMJ), a well-regarded, peer-reviewed publication in the medical field... The British Medical Journal, has brought attention to recent dissension involving WPATH (refer to source):[8]. According to the BMJ report, there are significant concerns about WPATH's involvement with research findings from Johns Hopkins University, suggesting attempts to influence the direction or content of these reports. Given this high-profile coverage, alongside the previous sources mentioned addressing similar issues above; it seems essential to include this information to present a nuanced view of the organization's activities and create a balanced article review Parker.Josh (talk) 12:33, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Just a note about the BMJ article, it was commissioned by the journal but it was externally peer reviewed before publication. Only mentioning it since it was kind of hard to find on the website. Dr vulpes (Talk) 23:57, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the information. BMJ is certainly another well-respected source, besides the Economist, that covers the John Hopkins reviews related controversy. I believe there can be no policy based objections to inclusion of this information. Sean Waltz O'Connell (talk) 12:06, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

We don't just looks at where something is published, but also the who. The fact that the author of that article is an activist with a COI and thus failing WP:INDEPENDENT clause of WP:RS. Refer to the discussion at Talk:Cass_Review#BMJ_Investigations_article for another recent article by the same author.

The article you referenced cites SEGM, a group known for pushing WP:FRINGE theories, so the credibility of this article is questionable. Raladic (talk) 15:32, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

These are not valid objections. I don't see any reliable independent source calling the author an activist. You need very good sources for such strong claims, not personal websites of some activists. If you can refute that, please provide a reputable citation in lieu of conjecture.

BMJ is a well-respected scholarly source, and the article in question is peer-reviewed. There is no rule that would invalidate a respected source for interviewing members of a certain organization. Objective journalism requires the presentation of all existing opinions, and SEGM is an important organization whose opinion is quoted pretty much by every source covering the subject. For example, NYT and Associated Press also quote SEGM, that does not mean that those sources are not reliable. In addition to the Economist and BMJ, highly reliable sources, there is another scholarly source that covers this issue. I provide below the relevant quote:

Article 36 (children should be protected from any activities that could harm their development) raises the same concerns as Article 33. All these considerations have become even more relevant after information, made public through a current U.S. court case, has shown that WPATH, in following its rights-based approach, actively suppressed the publication of evidence-based information pertaining to medical interventions for gender dysphoria (Exhibit 167) (Boe v. Marshall, 2024; Economist, 2024). After receiving the results of the systematic reviews that WPATH commissioned Johns Hopkins University researchers to conduct, WPATH leadership became “painfully aware that there are many gaps in research to back up our recommendations” (Exhibit 190, page 9) (Boe v. Marshall, 2024) for children and adolescents in WPATH 8 guidelines (Coleman et al., 2022). The Johns Hopkins researchers reached out to U.S. federal authorities, noting that “we have been having issues with the sponsor (WPATH) trying to restrict our ability to publish” and that “we found little to no evidence about children and adolescents” (Exhibit 173, page 23).

Kozlowska, K., Ambler, G. R., Dechêne, S., Almaraz Almaraz, M. C., Eliacheff, C., Entwistle, K., Esteva de Antonio, I., Gómez Gil, E., Hofman, P., Hunter, P., Kaltiala, R., Koener, B., Landén, M., Ledrait, A., Maguire, A. M., Masson, C., O’Malley, S., Raven, M., Ryan, H., … Scher, S. (2024). Evolving national guidelines for the treatment of children and adolescents with gender dysphoria: International perspectives. Human Systems, 0(0). [9] Sean Waltz O'Connell (talk) 14:33, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

According to GLADD, the UKS LGBT doctor's union, the author's previously published work presents "one-sided and harmful narratives about trans people in the UK", engages in "selective citing of aspects of the review", compares "gender-affirming care to gay conversion therapy in the 1950s" which "is incorrect and deeply offensive to the LGBTQ+ community" (not supported by any major medical organization in the world), "wrongfully pathologised trans identities as an illness or undesirable, a disappointing misrepresentation of who people are."[10]

The BMA's deputy council chair stated "We have recently written to the BMJ, which is editorially independent, to challenge its article “Gender dysphoria in young people is rising—and so is professional disagreement” and express our concern, that alongside criticisms made by LGTBQ+ organisations such as GLADD and neurodivergent doctors, in our view, it lacks equality, diversity and inclusion awareness and patient voice. That the article has been used by transphobic lobby groups around the world is of particular concern to us."[11]

The RCS England Pride in Surgery Forum, a group of LGBTQ+ individuals in the field, wrote "The article on gender dysphoria in young people by Jennifer Block (1) would appear at first inspection to offer an evidence-based review. However, the assertions made are in some cases unsupported by reference, and in others are based on only some of the available evidence. ... Suffice it to say that this ‘investigation’ does not report evenly on the available evidence."[12]

This is concerning and does not point towards the reliability of the source. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 16:34, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Given that the article can't give a consistent number of systematic reviews that John Hopkins published (stating 1 and 2 at different parts of the article) and that previous articles have gotten basic facts wrong (like the age of institutions). Given that the author also fails to disclose that Gordon Guyatt has been paid by SEGM to complete systematic reviews (highly relevant to the article given that it mentions SEGM and their systematic reviews and uses lots from SEGM) I really struggle to see why we should treat this particular peice as a rs despite where it comes from. LunaHasArrived (talk) 18:49, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

It says that there was one paper published after 2020, the 2021 meta data analysis. What is the other one? The articles are based on court documents from John Hopkins itself. PerseusMeredith (talk) 21:31, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

The article says nothing about "after 2020". There was another one [13] published in September 2020 (after the dispute that was complained about in August 2020). The article also describes the SEGM systematic reviews as forthcoming when one [14] was published on the 10 of September (over a month before the bmj article). Either way the biggest problem is failing to note Gordon Guyatt's obvious connection to SEGM. These problems mean I can't trust this article to provide accurate or relevant information. LunaHasArrived (talk) 10:33, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Advocacy groups do not qualify as reliable sources and cannot be used to challenge the reliability of genuinely credible sources, especially peer-reviewed scholarly publications. It’s also worth noting that the BMA itself is under significant criticism regarding its position on this issue, including from some of its own members: [15] [16].

The BMJ report states that two Johns Hopkins reviews were published, with only one published following the dispute with WPATH, who reportedly attempted to prevent its release. The Economist corroborates this: 'The Hopkins team published only one paper after WPATH implemented its new policy: a 2021 meta-analysis on the effects of hormone therapy on transgender people.' Thus, there is no contradiction.

We now have three reliable sources referencing the Johns Hopkins reviews: BMJ, The Economist, and a group of international scholars noted above. This story has received wide coverage in mainstream media, with numerous op-eds examining the implications. The evidence presented is based on publicly available court documents—primary sources that we cannot interpret directly, but which have been analyzed by three secondary sources, including two peer-reviewed scholarly ones. Our role here is not to perform original analysis but to accurately reflect what reliable sources state, and we now have ample, reputable sources to support this information for inclusion per Wikipedia rules. Sean Waltz O'Connell (talk) 11:14, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

It's notable that the economist definitely is misreporting here, it states the policy was implemented in august 2020 and this other review was published in September 2020 that 2 sources get this wrong and state this contradiction does not strengthen their position. As well as this the economist definitely is wrong when they state "more than six years after signing the agreement, the EPC team does not appear to have published anything else" with the Economist having only referred to one Published document in the article. Our role as editors does definitely include OR on talk pages to see whether Sources have made mistakes. LunaHasArrived (talk) 12:59, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

No, you're reading far too much into this, and this level of "fact-checking" is way beyond.

What the BMJ piece says:

The SOC8 update began in 2018, when WPATH commissioned systematic reviews from a team at Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore. Over the next few years that team “completed and submitted a number of reviews to the WPATH SOC8 Chairs and Chapters,” said a March 2023 email exclusively obtained by The BMJ through a public records request. But the process didn’t go smoothly, and just two manuscripts were published: one on the impact of hormones on mental health and another on prolactin levels in trans women taking oestrogen

No date limits here, just talking about the process as a whole. The "prolactin" paper was published in September 2020.

Now what the Economist says:

After wpath leaders saw two manuscripts submitted for review in July 2020, however, the parties’ disagreements flared up again. In August the WPATH executive committee wrote to Ms Robinson that WPATH had “many concerns” about these papers, and that it was implementing a new policy in which WPATH would have authority to influence the EPC team’s output—including the power to nip papers in the bud on the basis of their conclusions. Ms Robinson protested that the new policy did not reflect the contract she had signed and violated basic principles of unfettered scientific inquiry she had emphasised repeatedly in her dealings with WPATH. The Hopkins team published only one paper after WPATH implemented its new policy: a 2021 meta-analysis on the effects of hormone therapy on transgender people.

This timeline and number of papers is not in any sort of factual disagreement. So, JH submitted 2 manuscripts for review in July (we don't know which ones), this triggered a disagreement, they wrote in August to indicate that they were implementing a new policy, but we don't know when that took effect because sending an email saying you're going to do something isn't the same as doing it. Especially as the BMJ says:

WPATH sent an update to Robinson and all SOC8 coauthors in October 2020 stating, “It is paramount that any publication based on the WPATH SOC8 data is thoroughly scrutinized and reviewed to ensure that publication does not negatively affect the provision of transgender healthcare in the broadest sense.”

So it is clear this is ongoing wrangling that kicked off in July, and was not settled for months. It is totally sensible to read this that the prolactin paper was already reviewed (possibly one of the two July manuscripts submitted) and went out in September while WPATH and JH were still wrangling over the sign-off policy, and then JH only published one more review after the new policy came into effect.

You're quibbling over alleged inconsistencies in a timeline where no such inconsistencies necessarily exist, and this is in absolutely no way enough of a basis to exclude a source. Void if removed (talk) 13:54, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Since noone pointed it out yet, this BMJ piece is investigative journalism from the BMJ investigations unit and thus WP:PRIMARY. Flounder fillet (talk) 20:44, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

No it isn't, it is secondary. It's giving information about the primary sources, which is the emails etc uncovered in discovery. Void if removed (talk) 00:02, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Investigative journalism is defined as primary by policy according to WP:PRIMARYNEWS. Flounder fillet (talk) 05:01, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Where the journalist is reporting on their own experiences. Void if removed (talk) 08:19, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

The location WP:PRIMARYNEWS links to simply mentions "investigative reports". Flounder fillet (talk) 20:42, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

The rule does not say that every investigative report is a primary source. It cites as an example "The journalist goes undercover and reports their experiences." That clearly is not the situation with BMJ. Also, BMJ is not a newspaper, it is a peer reviewed scholarly journal. JonJ937 (talk) 13:12, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

The essay at WP:PRIMARYNEWS does in fact state the following:

Investigative reports [end of header] The journalist goes undercover and reports their experiences. The journalist meets with people and reads documents to uncover corruption. (Defined as a primary source by policy.)

Where "by policy" links to WP:NOR#defs, which states:

Further examples of primary sources include: archeological artifacts; census results; video or transcripts of surveillance, public hearings, etc.; investigative reports; trial/litigation in any country (including material – which relates to either the trial or to any of the parties involved in the trial – published/authored by any involved party, before, during or after the trial); editorials, op-eds, columns, blogs, and other opinion pieces, including (depending on context) reviews and interviews (see Wikipedia:Reliable sources § News organizations); tabulated results of surveys or questionnaires; original philosophical works; religious scripture; medieval and ancient works, even if they cite earlier known or lost writings; tomb plaques and gravestones; and artistic and fictional works such as poems, scripts, screenplays, novels, motion pictures, videos, and television programs. For definitions of primary sources:[...]

Flounder fillet (talk) 21:55, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Again, this rule does not say that every investigative report is a primary source. It is about situations where a journalist reports their personal experiences, like going undercover, etc. In that case their account would be a primary source. That is the exact situation cited as an example. It is not the same with peer reviewed scholarly journals that share their own analysis, which clearly qualify as secondary sources. JonJ937 (talk) 10:36, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

The example is a part of an explanatory essay(WP:USEPRIMARY) about the WP:NOR policy. The "rule" here is the second thing I quoted, and it simply states "investigative reports", presumably for some good reason. Flounder fillet (talk) 16:55, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

From my point of view, there is no valid reason to dismiss this incident or the reliable sources reporting on it.

When you consider respected publications like The Economist, BMJ, and the scholarly journal articles cited, it’s hard to argue that these sources are anything but credible. The incident in question has been verified by a sufficient number of independent outlets, solidifying its authenticity.

Given this strong corroboration, there is no doubt about the event’s occurrence, particularly since this information was not challenged by any other credible sources.

As noted previously by users, our role here is not to offer personal interpretations but to relay the facts as presented by the reliable sources available. Parker.Josh (talk)

The continued coverage of this, including now in a peer-reviewed journal, makes it untenable not to include any mention at all. However, I think the thing worth mentioning is the organisation trying to restrict publication of the systematic reviews, not the bit about changing the age limit. I also don't think a standalone Criticism section is best practice; rather, we should amend the Standards of Care section first paragraph to something like this (new part in bold):

WPATH released Version 8, the latest edition, in 2022; it is ,which it described as being based upon a “more rigorous and methodological evidence-based approach than previous versions.” Critics have questioned the evidential integrity of the standards, suggesting that WPATH attempted to prevent the publication of systematic reviews that may "negatively affect the provision of transgender healthcare in the broadest sense".

Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 12:07, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree that given the coverage in reliable sources, it’s important to include information about the Johns Hopkins reviews, and your suggestion to incorporate it within the SOC8 discussion rather than as a standalone section seems sound. For full context, though, adding more specific details about these reviews could enhance clarity. Reliable sources indicate that WPATH commissioned systematic reviews from Johns Hopkins University, but when the findings diverged from WPATH’s expectations, they attempted to influence the content and ultimately blocked publication.

For instance, BMJ’s investigation highlights specific concerns among WPATH authors regarding the potential legal implications of endorsing interventions for minors without proven health benefits. According to BMJ:

The hesitation among some WPATH SOC8 authors was that independent appraisals of the evidence would undermine legal efforts to protect affirming interventions from legislative restriction in minors. In a form that appears to have been part of WPATH’s SOC8 publication process and is now legal evidence, a chapter author wrote, “Our concerns, echoed by the social justice lawyers we spoke with, is that evidence based review reveals little or no evidence and puts us in an untenable position in terms of affecting policy or winning lawsuits.” Several WPATH SOC8 authors were serving as expert witnesses in lawsuits brought by the American Civil Liberties Union and other plaintiffs. Another commented that any language in the guidelines undermining medical necessity—such as “insufficient evidence” or “limited data”—would empower the people calling treatments experimental and arguing for limiting them to clinical trials.

Presenting it this way may address WPATH’s actions while focusing on the essential context. Perhaps a wording like the following would convey the necessary information effectively:

WPATH released Version 8, the latest edition, in 2022; it is , which it described as being based upon a “more rigorous and methodological evidence-based approach than previous versions.” However, WPATH faced criticism for attempting to influence and block the publication of systematic reviews it had commissioned from Johns Hopkins University, which raised concerns about the evidential integrity of the standards themselves

Additionally, given the significant coverage of the Rachel Levine controversy in major outlets like the New York Times, The Economist, The Hill, and now BMJ, it seems that this aspect also warrants inclusion in some form to provide a complete picture of current discussions around WPATH. Sean Waltz O'Connell (talk) 14:57, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

IMHO, the "however" is editorialising, and "for attempting to influence" is a wikivoice claim of a disputed action. I'd go with Barnards' wording, personally, I think its neutral and obviously DUE by this point, and I'd start there and see if it needs expanding or rephrasing later. Void if removed (talk) 15:09, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

I think both Hopkins reviews and Rachel Levine incidents need to be covered in this article, as both were reported by multiple reliable sources. Barnards' wording is good, but we need to mention which reviews in particular WPATH tried to suppress. I.e, reviews commissioned from John Hopkins University. JonJ937 (talk) 10:49, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

If my wording looks like editorializing as is interpreted, then in view of the above comments - I believe Barnard's wording would be appropriate, with the inclusion of who produced the review, being John Hopkins University. Sean Waltz O'Connell (talk) 11:33, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Actually, another issue is that, as worded, the quote can be read as being from the critics, when actually it is from WPATH.

How about:

Critics have questioned the evidential integrity of the standards, after emails emerged suggesting that WPATH sought final approval of systematic reviews it had commissioned from Johns Hopkins University to ensure publication did not "negatively affect the provision of transgender healthcare in the broadest sense".

Makes it clearer where the criticism it is coming from, and why, what triggered it, and who the quote is from, but also doesn't make the strong claim that they definitely did suppress anything, merely that they attempted to impose final approval before greenlighting any publication.

Possible alternatives to "emails emerged suggesting": "legal filings suggested", "unsealed court documents suggested". Void if removed (talk) 12:39, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Looks good to me. Flounder fillet (talk) 17:20, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm generally fine with your version, and agree that 'unsealed court documents suggested' is a better phrasing. But we might consider adding:

"This led to the Johns Hopkins team publishing only one review, despite John Hopkins team providing WPATH with material for multiple."

Accordingly, as reported, WPATH apparently withheld approval for the unspecified number of additional reviews, which prevented their publication. Although specific details from those deliberations remain unclear, both The Economist and BMJ reported on the outcome. Sean Waltz O'Connell (talk) 16:25, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree with void if removed's proposed wording, but I think Sean's addition also makes sense JonJ937 (talk) 12:25, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Because there is still an element of unclarity, I would prefer to leave that extra sentence out for now, because the only thing we know with certainty is that WPATH sought to gatekeep, not the extent of how successful that gatekeeping was (and thus we cannot state for sure that this gatekeeping was definitely what "led" to the other reviews not being published. There could have been other reasons too. But otherwise I think Void's iteration is good, plus "unsealed court documents suggested", leading to the following version:

Critics have questioned the evidential integrity of the standards, after unsealed court documents suggested that WPATH sought final approval of systematic reviews it had commissioned from Johns Hopkins University to ensure publication did not "negatively affect the provision of transgender healthcare in the broadest sense".

Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 19:50, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Fails use of loaded terms per MOS:CLAIM. Also MOS:WEASEL - who are those "Critics" and why is their questioning here relevant, are they independent and qualified? Per further above, it still looks like we only have primary news on this. Raladic (talk) 20:04, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

The Economist and BMJ, along with the scholarly research referenced earlier, are not primary, sources. If additional attribution is deemed necessary, we could revise the text to read:

'Reports in The Economist and the BMJ have questioned the evidential integrity of the standards after unsealed court documents suggested that WPATH sought final approval of systematic reviews it had commissioned from Johns Hopkins University to ensure their publication would not "negatively affect the provision of transgender healthcare in the broadest sense."'

I support the latest version proposed by Barnards. Sean Waltz O'Connell (talk) 11:12, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

The BMJ investigative journalism report is primary, see further up, by a person who has a vested interest in this, thus also failing WP:INDEPENDENT as was discussed at length here and Talk:Cass_Review#BMJ_Investigations_article already, and the economist source was already discussed at length, so let's not rehash this again.

It's not unusual for an organization to have final approval rights for publication of something it commissioned, so what is the purpose of the sentence you're proposing, other than to cast allegations of doubt into the room that no other actual secondary independent source has reported on, presumably because they are simply not noteworthy.

And again, the MOS:CLAIM and MOS:WEASEL - still stands - who are the people that have "questioned the evidential integrity", what is their qualifications as to why their commentary here is relevant?

If you remove this weasel wording and claims, then all you're left with is - "WPATH sought final approval of systematic reviews it had commissioned from Johns Hopkins University." - which is not unusual in the world of research and basically becomes non-news, just as we don't usually report on the fact that the sky is blue. Raladic (talk) 16:26, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

I believe we’ve already discussed at length that both The BMJ and The Economist are reliable secondary sources, not primary ones. Additionally, a third peer-reviewed scholarly source corroborates the findings reported by these two outlets. With three reliable sources, there is ample basis for including the information, meeting Wikipedia's standards for verifiability and weight.

The Economist and BMJ, as well as the group of international scholars I quoted above, are qualified to analyze the evidence, and I proposed direct attribution of the information in my post above, if you are not happy with just "critics".

At this point, continuing this discussion without new arguments, risks becoming circular. There appears to be a rough consensus in favor of Barnards' version, and we should move forward with its implementation. Alternatively, if there are lingering objections, we can initiate an RFC to seek broader community input and settle the matter conclusively.

I also took note of your earlier objections to addition a few months prior, regarding suitable coverage & corroboration, which I believe have now been addressed by these recent developments in coverage. Sean Waltz O'Connell (talk) 09:15, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

The person for the article in the BMJ is Jennifer Block, an investigative journalist and activist, that is primary as @Flounder fillet has shown above. The BMJ is just a place to publish, it's not an organization that puts their name behind a paper or piece, unless they author it AS the BMJ.

So if you want to attribute it, it would be "The activist Jennifer Block criticized it" - who else is there? The Economist article doesn't have a named author and was investigative in nature as well, so also primary. In there Ms Robinson is quoted as having protested that the organization that commissioned the reviews, as is their purview, has rights over publishing.

So at best you'd have Ms. Robinson criticized WPATH in unsealed court documents that gave WPATH final approval of systematic reviews it had commissioned from Johns Hopkins University to ensure publication did not "negatively affect the provision of transgender healthcare in the broadest sense". - which is a "so what" WP:DUE question. Papers get commissioned and then sometimes not published all the time, it's non-news and Wikipedia is WP:NOTNEWS.

So this part "Critics have questioned the evidential integrity of the standards" is a failed WP:WEASEL sentence for lack of these "Critics", even failing WP:SYNTH since the "evidential integrity" part does not appear in either, and the BMJ investigative article also just references Robinson. Raladic (talk) 18:44, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

As demonstrated, this is not primary, and there's no sensible reason not to include it. Void if removed (talk) 15:06, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

In my opinion the latest phrasing suggested by @Barnards.tar.gz seems appropriate. It effectively reflects the information provided by reliable sources. Parker.Josh (talk) 22:25, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

The BMJ article is not a primary source, as has been explained above by other users. It was commissioned by BMJ, explicitly titled as a BMJ Investigation, and underwent peer review. This demonstrates that BMJ fully endorses the article and its findings, making it as reliable as any source can be within its scope.

Furthermore, no independent, reliable source has characterized the author of the BMJ article as an activist. Wikipedia policy requires such claims to be supported by verifiable, reliable sources, and in the absence of such evidence, we cannot make or entertain such labels.

As for The Economist, it is listed as a reliable source at WP:RSPSS, including on trans-related topics, further reinforcing its credibility.

Given that most users commenting here have supported the compromise wording, we should respect WP:CONSENSUS and proceed with its implementation. Prolonging this discussion without new arguments risks unnecessary circularity. Sean Waltz O'Connell (talk) 13:27, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

After three months of this its clearly due for inclusion. Void if removed (talk) 15:06, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

In line with the prevailing consensus reached above, I have incorporated the agreed-upon compromise wording regarding the aforementioned developments Sean Waltz O'Connell (talk) 17:16, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Raladic, you cannot make edits such as this that go against the consensus. Your proposed wording had no support from other users. As a seasoned user you know this violates Wikipedia guidelines. Please revert your edit, to abide by the consensus worked out by the majority on this page. Sean Waltz O'Connell (talk) 17:39, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

No, you should know, that WP:NPOV policy violations are prime and "This policy is non-negotiable, and the principles upon which it is based cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, nor by editor consensus." - the text you inserted violated them (as I also mentioned two days ago), blatantly, so I have reworded it to state the facts, neutrally, as extracted from the sources, and attributed the person that raised criticism per WP:INTEXT (we attribute to the person, not to a place where something was published in) without the undue POV violations in it. So the point that the SOC was based on research from multiple contracted organizations, as extracted from the sources you linked is that, as is the fact that one researcher out of many of them has criticized it, neutrally, fact based. Raladic (talk) 18:30, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

You should strike that accusation of "blatant" NPOV violation, for what was a pretty accurate and neutral rendition of the sources. What you've come up with bears little relation to the information in either of them as presented by the sources and does not inform the reader of the salient points. And you're wrong to call Robinson a "critic". Void if removed (talk) 23:51, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Refining a controverted addition is fairly standard practice. Having one consensus does not preclude new bold edits to be made. But if there is the assertion here that the consensus at this section specifies the form of attribution that was inserted and nothing else, I would have to NACK the addition as a whole, since investigative reports are PRIMARY as a matter of policy, which cannot be overridden by the local consensus here (thus making the local consensus erroneous) and there has been no substantive reason given why the vague attribution to critics is appropriate, again contrary to countervailing guidelines. Thus, I do not believe that the burden for inclusion has been met. Alpha3031 (t • c) 21:39, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

investigative reports are PRIMARY

This is the third time this false claim has come up in relation to this source. An investigative report is primary for the material that the investigative reporter produces themselves, from their first-hand experience.

In this instance, the primary source is substantially the material disclosed in discovery that has been reported on elsewhere, which this source is then secondary for, providing analysis and synthesis and commentary etc.

The material being added is not primary.

The text before was:

Reports in The Economist and The BMJ have questioned the evidential integrity of the standards, after unsealed court documents suggested that WPATH sought final approval of systematic reviews it had commissioned from Johns Hopkins University to ensure publication did not "negatively affect the provision of transgender healthcare in the broadest sense".

Lets look at what it has been "refined" to.

WPATH commissioned a series of reviews to support the development of the latest version of the Standards of Care 8 from various research organizations, but retained the publishing rights to the contracted research.

This is editorialising to the point of WP:SYNTH and should be self-reverted. No mention of the questioning of the integrity of the standards, no mention that this emerged in discovery.

WPATH sent an update to all SOC 8 coauthors in October 2020 stating, "It is paramount that any publication based on the WPATH SOC8 data is thoroughly scrutinized and reviewed to ensure that publication does not negatively affect the provision of transgender healthcare in the broadest sense."

No mention this came after they attempted to seek final approval of the Johns Hopkins systematic reviews. This sentence doesn't explain anything.

Karen Robinson, one of the researchers at Johns Hopkins University one of the contracted research organizations said that "We had hoped to publish more of those reviews but for a few reasons have not done so"

What is the point of this? The edit comment refers to them as "the actual critic" which is false, they are not a "critic". It puts an entirely positive/banal spin on things.

referring to WPATHs retained rights to limit independent publishing that was contracted to support the development of the SOC 8

This is editorialising, again hammering home the POV about "retained rightS".

I struggle to see you can consider these changes "refining". It isn't an improvement to what was already reflective of the sources.

This isn't even close to NPOV, and "refining" does not mean "obfuscate what the sources actually said and how they presented the information".

The story is: after 2 systematic reviews by Johns Hopkins were published, WPATH tried to enforce a new protocol whereby they would have final say over publication, which met with initial resistance from Johns Hopkins. After that, no further reviews were published. This was not publicly known until it emerged in discovery. This has called into question the integrity and independence of the SOC8 evidence review process.

Please tell me how a disinterested reader is informed of this by this "refinement" you're defending. Void if removed (talk) 23:39, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Quite frankly, I don't care for any specific refinement, I am just pointing out that a vague Critics have questioned is entirely unacceptable to me without strong justification for that specific wording, and that I would otherwise NACK the proposal for inclusion, with reference to the aforementioned guidelines.

I don't think the PRIMARY issue particularly significant in this case (since PRIMARY would not preclude inclusion) but investigative reports are defined without qualification as a primary source as a matter of policy, it does not matter whether it is factually a primary source outside of Wikipedia's use of the term, because when things are specifically defined it is no longer a question of fact. Contrast for example, opinion pieces, including [...] reviews and interviews [...] which are considered PRIMARY depending on context. Alpha3031 (t • c) 02:28, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Critics have questioned

The actual wording removed wasn't even that, but the more speciefic/non-WP:WEASEL improvement Reports in The Economist and The BMJ have questioned, so this is a non-objection.

I don't think the PRIMARY issue particularly significant in this case I agree, because it isn't primary.

What the definition says is:

The journalist goes undercover and reports their experiences. The journalist meets with people and reads documents to uncover corruption. (Defined as a primary source by policy.)

These aspects of a report would be WP:PRIMARY. None of that is relevant here, where what is discussed for inclusion is secondary coverage of an existing story with additional analysis and 3rd party commentary. Just because it is part of a BMJ "investigations" series by the "investigations" unit doesn't make the entirety of the piece primary. An investigation that is primary is one where the journalist themselves uncovers the story through their own actions, where they are reporting their first-hand experience of events, and where they are then the primary source for the information. That is not the case here, since what is being raised for inclusion from the BMJ is an expansion of a story that has already been covered in other sources, with additional reactions. A source can be both primary for some information and secondary for others. In this case, what's been proposed for inclusion is the BMJ's secondary coverage and analysis of an existing story.

To illustrate: the primary source of the quote "negatively affect the provision of transgender healthcare in the broadest sense" is a legal filing that is in the public domain, which was first covered by the Economist in June, which has now been further covered and analysed by the BMJ in a peer-reviewed article in October. There are no grounds for calling that primary. Void if removed (talk) 09:45, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Investigative reports are primary in the same way that breaking news stories are primary, and the same way that opinion pieces are primary, because the policy that defines what the word primary means on Wikipedia explicitly defines them as primary, even though they can in some situations be used as secondary sources. Now, I'll need reread the BMJ since the last time I read it was over a week ago, so I'll respond to the rest later. Alpha3031 (t • c) 10:30, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't think expert opinion is necessarily primary when not part of an investigative report (i.e., the quotes are not covered under WP:RSOPINION), but they also don't represent analysis, synthesis or commentary on the part of the journalistic source. Whichever attribution we choose should reflect that. Alpha3031 (t • c) 10:48, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm going to decline to comment on the Economist article for now other than to say attributing to The Economist statements made in its editorial voice are appropriate should we find inclusion in general appropriate. I don't think attribution to Block or BMJ would be appropriate, except for statements made in the publication's own voice, which would make specific attribution unfortunately more difficult if we do end up using BMJ. I believe would be substantively accurate to attribute to Robinson the bulk of the usable criticism, though I do not necessarily agree that that would be the most appropriate attribution — I would be less inclined to support attributions that do not mention that Robinson is being quoted in the Economist and BMJ articles if Robinson is attributed. I also do not see any reason why we should consider the BMJ article anything other than a standard investigative report, and with that, I think I've spent enough time on this, and will be signing off for now. Alpha3031 (t • c) 11:33, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

The source itself is not neutral as it is an investigative report by an involved party and primary, so any of the investigative commentary is not due for inclusion, so what we are left with is what is extractable neutrally as facts.

Which is that a) WPATH retained publishing rights and clarified so to ALL SOC 8 contributing researching organizations as quoted, Johns Hopkins being among them, b) Ms. Robinson was unhappy about this and commented the quoted sentence in her personal capacity (presumably as more would violate the contracts) c) no one officially at neither Johns Hopkins, nor WPATH commented further on it as mentioned in the refs. d) no actual secondary sources have picked up on this "story", presumably because there isn't one, other than normal course of research business. So the rest of the investigative commentary of the sources that are trying to portray a drama around evidence (the original wording itself was WP:EDITORIALIZEd WP:SYNTH as "questioned the evidential integrity of the standards" does not appear in either of the two sources) are investigative by the authors of the refs and are primary, thus not includable, as was already pointed out by multiple editors now, no matter how many more times you claim it isn't so. Same for the WP:SYNTH violation that was the combining of part of the quote that WPATH issued guidance to ALL organizations/authors and instead this construct "...suggested that WPATH sought final approval of systematic reviews it had commissioned from Johns Hopkins University to ensure publication did not "negatively affect the provision of transgender healthcare in the broadest sense". which synthesized using a WP:CLAIM violation to spin on things (hence the WP:NPOV problem) and combining it with a separate quote to try to present some kind of conclusion, which was corrected by presenting that quote in its entirety as "WPATH sent an update to all SOC 8 coauthors in October 2020 stating, "It is paramount that any publication based on the WPATH SOC8 data is thoroughly scrutinized and reviewed to ensure that publication does not negatively affect the provision of transgender healthcare in the broadest sense.". And yes, once we've extracted the actual facts of the story, turns out, there's not much there, which is exactly what I already pointed out above.Raladic (talk) 02:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

the original wording itself was WP:EDITORIALIZEd WP:SYNTH as "questioned the evidential integrity of the standards"

I thought this was a fair summary, but I've changed it to "evidence base" which does appear in the sources.

the combining of part of the quote that WPATH issued guidance to ALL organizations/authors

I've split that now.

involved party

Explain this please. Void if removed (talk) 09:46, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

The argument that every investigative report constitutes a primary source cannot be sustained and should cease. This repetitive and unfounded claim undermines the discussion. I recall that the same user previously argued that every report by The Economist was merely an opinion piece, a position that similarly lacked merit. That matter had to be escalated to WP:RSN, where the community affirmed The Economist's reliability as a source. Continuing to waste the community's time with such baseless arguments is counterproductive & unfounded.

Moreover, the character assassination attempts directed at the BMJ author must also stop, as there is a complete absence of any reliable sources supporting such allegations. We now have three reliable sources addressing this incident. Notably, no one has discussed this peer-reviewed scholarly journal, which also analyzed court documents and states:

After receiving the results of the systematic reviews that WPATH commissioned Johns Hopkins University researchers to conduct, WPATH leadership became “painfully aware that there are many gaps in research to back up our recommendations” (Exhibit 190, page 9) (Boe v. Marshall, 2024) for children and adolescents in WPATH 8 guidelines (Coleman et al., 2022). The Johns Hopkins researchers reached out to U.S. federal authorities, noting that “we have been having issues with the sponsor (WPATH) trying to restrict our ability to publish” and that “we found little to no evidence about children and adolescents” (Exhibit 173, page 23).

This confirms that the research did not support WPATH's recommendations and that the Johns Hopkins researchers explicitly raised concerns about WPATH attempting to restrict their ability to publish.

Additionally, whether WPATH attempted to restrict all commissioned researchers is irrelevant here. The Johns Hopkins team appears to have been the most prominent group involved, as the sources specifically discuss their case rather than any others. Sean Waltz O'Connell (talk) 14:25, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

This new paper you're citing has been published by SEGM, an WP:FRINGE anti-trans hate group, so this is most certainly FUD and not reliable for this topic. It actually furthers the notion that this appears to be a concerted effort by an anti-trans hate group to try to run a smear campaign against the world's foremost transgender health research organization. That means that now any of this may run afoul of WP:NOTADVOCACY. Raladic (talk) 15:52, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

This new paper you're citing has been published by SEGM

I see no obvious indication of this on the linked page. Did you misread SAGE as SEGM? Flounder fillet (talk) 17:33, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Nope, no misreading - the laundry list of authors contains the principal actors of SEGM, so it's pretty clear where this paper came from and the motivations behind it. Raladic (talk) 18:01, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps I am missing something, but I do not see any mention of SEGM in the referenced source. The article in question was published by SAGE Publications in Human Systems, a peer-reviewed scholarly journal. It is highly improbable that a coordinated smear campaign could involve top mainstream media outlets worldwide, including The New York Times, The Economist, The Washington Post, and The Guardian, all of which have provided coverage of recent incidents related to WPATH in some form. Sean Waltz O'Connell (talk) 17:42, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

The authors of the paper are the principal actors of SEGM, who have a history of publishing their fringe views in papers to try to legitimize them. It doesn't make them less fringe as the medical community agrees. And yes, sometimes these organizations as SEGM and Genspect do manage to publish in otherwise reliable sources to try to advance their fringe views as media watchdogs, including via connected reporters such as Block, or this report by Media Matters have uncovered. So looks like this appears to be a new string of efforts on behalf of the organization, this latest paper you just linked was actually very useful in connecting this campaign now to its roots. Raladic (talk) 18:03, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Looks like a reliable source to me, with some 20 authors, published in a reputable journal.

This isn't fringe, and you're edit-warring the article. Void if removed (talk) 18:10, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

I echo Void's sentiments, and concerns for your current conduct. This is a peer-reviewed journal, meaning that any paper they publish has undergone a certain level of quality control. Furthermore, independent reliable sources such as Associated Press, The New York Times, and The Economist do not refer to SEGM as fringe. You refer to activist sources, in your attempts to discredit scholarly publications. Regardless, editing the article in defiance of consensus and disregarding the input of other users is not acceptable. Wikipedia operates on the principle of consensus, and its necessary for all contributions to respect this foundational guideline. Sean Waltz O'Connell (talk) 18:30, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

For everybody's reference: This paper is authored by, among others, SEGM members Stella O'Malley and Patrick Hunter, and conversion therapy promoter Kenneth Zucker. Half the article is complaining about how they think conversion therapy bans are going too far. It's not a systematic review of any kind, but an original manuscript that's not especially useful for anything.

Somebody should make a standard GENSEX notice for talk pages: "Please make sure the author(s) you're citing are not infamous conversion therapists or board members of pro-conversion therapy organizations". This source is so bloody WP:FRINGE it's painful... Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 18:43, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

A reminder that WP:BLP applies to talk pages, and a wiki page I see you yourself have substantially rewritten about a month ago to call someone a conversion therapist in wikivoice is not a reliable source. Void if removed (talk) 19:28, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

The reliable sources are in there, same as at Gender identity change efforts - you are trying to defend the dude whose stated treatment goal has openly been to try and prevent kids from identifying as trans and whose methods include having parents actively discourage any gender noncomformity. But for your convenience, here's a book on conversion therapy published by the American Psychological Association that says it[17]. Do you have a more reliable source to counter this?

• Green’s methods were adopted by Dr. Kenneth Zucker at the Center for Addiction and Mental Health in Toronto (Zucker & Bradley, 1995; Zucker et al., 2012) but modified so that the focus was primarily on preventing a child from developing an eventual transgender identity. Zucker called his approach the “living in your own skin” model, in which behavior and presentation were modified to conform to gender role expectations associated with one’s natal sex. His methods included behavioral modification of cross-gender play interests, encouraging greater engagement on the part of the same-sex parent (and less of the opposite-sex parent), as well as psycho-dynamic therapy. Therapeutic programs based on this model have subsequently been banned in the province of Ontario.

Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 20:00, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I was just looking. You've also cited this chapter by Diane Ehrensaft for the "living in your own skin" model, but this makes no mention of "conversion therapy". The author refers to reparative therapy, and notes that the practitioners deny that's what it is. This is a PRIMARY, RSOPINION and non-independent source that is inappropriate for this sort of strong-to-defamatory BLP claim.

If you're going to make an accusation of being a conversion therapist, you need a strong secondary source clearly saying that, and the part you've quoted in this book does not say that. You're reading across from earlier parts of the chapter and drawing inferences, to reach a strong conclusion, even though the source doesn't actually state it so plainly. What you have is a source whose opinion should be attributed, and in this instance does not actually state what you're saying, ie "this is a form of conversion therapy".

In fact, the source seems to misrepresent the underlying citations quite badly. Eg, the source you're quoting says:

His methods included behavioral modification of cross-gender play interests

But the given citation Zucker 2012 says:

As an example, we might explain to parents of girls that forcing them to wear dresses or other feminine clothing (which creates severe anxiety in many girls with GID) should not be the focus of treatment and that it would likely be unhelpful.

And:

When we conduct open-ended play psychotherapy (or simply talk therapy) with children, like any psychotherapeutic intervention for any issue, therapy begins with educating the child about the reason that they are in therapy. This is tailored to the child's developmental level and cognitive sophistication. Some children are simply told that they are going to meet with an individual therapist to understand better their gender-related feelings and, during sessions, they are free to play with whatever they want (boys' toys, girls' toys, dress-up clothing, neutral and educational activities, etc.), to draw, to talk about day-to-day life, to report on their dreams, and so on.

Which would seem to be the exact opposite? This is confusing, way off topic, and absolutely no grounds for excluding a peer reviewed source with 19 other authors in a reputable journal.

And I think this is pretty clear WP:BLP violation stuff. Void if removed (talk) 20:36, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Regarding the two pieces of text you cited, I don't actually see where they rule out what is described in the quoted sentence. In fact, when placed in their original context, they seem to be about wildly unrelated things. Your first quote in context is not a description of the general principles of the therapeutic approach endorsed by zucker, but much more specifically about stopping parents from trying to address the "symptoms" while therapy is still ongoing. The second alinea you quote is about how to introduce the therapy to the children undergoing it, and is thus also not about how the therapy actually operates! [18]--Licks-rocks (talk) 17:42, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

If the parents are clear in their desire to have their child feel more com-

fortable in their own skin, that is, they would like to reduce their child’s

desire to be of the other gender, the therapeutic approach is organized

around this goal.[19]

Well, wouldn't ya know what I found in Zucker 2012. --Licks-rocks (talk) 18:15, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

@Raladic Editing the page on SEGM while this discussion is going on to add "fringe" to the lede isn't helping. Void if removed (talk) 20:01, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

I simply brought up an existing sentence from the article to the relevant lead paragraph.

Again, just as I have previously asked you to, please stop WP:HOUNDING my edits at every opportunity. Raladic (talk) 20:04, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

When you edit multiple pages on my watchlist in quick succession to make a point, it comes up. This is not hounding. Void if removed (talk) 20:37, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

There is not much point in debating the Human Systems source. It simply quotes the court files, which are available online, and anyone can check them to see that the quotes are accurate. I don't think anyone can dispute what is written there about the controversy in question. But even without this source, the BMJ and the Economist are two very reliable sources, but I see that the consensus wording was replaced by something no one ever agreed to. How is that acceptable? Does a single person own this article, and is this person the only one who can edit it? JonJ937 (talk) 21:42, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

I support the consensus wording edit made by Sean Waltz O'Connell on Nov 22nd - even though I don’t think it captures the aspect of evidence suppression by WPATH sufficiently - which I think is central to the coverage by several reliable sources. After reading the talk page discussion, I support the edit as a sound compromise. The current wording in the article seems very WP:SYNTH and the arguments made in the talk page in support of it are very off topic. The previous compromise wording meets WP standards and this article should return to it. BlueBellTree (talk) 19:07, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

I second the sentiments expressed by BlueBellTree with regards to the revision.

The article, as it stands, does not accurately reflect its sources, relying too much on 'selective quotes' from primary sources like emails. It needs to be based on secondary sources, such as the actual reporting by The Economist and BMJ, to ensure credibility and balance.

Unilateral edits without consulting others violate Wikipedia’s collaborative principles and undermine the editing process. Adhering to etiquette and maintaining consensus are essential for fairness and accuracy. Let’s work together to ensure the article meets community standards. Parker.Josh (talk) 18:37, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

The following significantly whitewashes the sources it cites, inventing the notion that this is about publishing rights:

WPATH commissioned a series of reviews to support the development of the latest version of the Standards of Care 8 from various research organizations and retained the publishing rights to the contracted research to support the SOC 8 guidelines,

Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 23:34, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

I agree. It is not about the publishing rights, but about the attempts to control what exactly is published. Generally, the present version of the article does not accurately reflect what the sources report, It was forced by a single user, against the consensus reached by multiple users. What should we do now, in light of this? Sean Waltz O'Connell (talk) 19:29, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

As far as I can tell an absolutely embarrasing six months later this has been picked up by exactly zero new reliable sources, so I think we can safely conclude that the WP:weight here is fairly low.

Having said that, and having looked a little closer, I'll say this: Behind the hot air most of this reads to me like a fairly standard contract dispute. there is no evidence of actual manipulation or pressure to alter results beyond just "they wanted to have input on when/how a dataset was published as part of their own publication schedule" and a bunch of misrepresented quotes. I've been able to track down every claim on this talk page and in the articles I've read now and in so far as they are relevant to this sentence they are invariably misrepresented. For example the quote "has the intention to use the Data for the benefit of advancing transgender health in a positive manner" which the economist and boston globe seem to think is some big smoking gun. Uh. That's in their list of basic funding requirements. That's not a requirement for a study to be published, it's a requirement for a study to recieve funding, at which point the outcome is obviously unknown, and thus can't be manipulated. They want to fund studies that will result in making people healthier, well, what a scoop.🙄

Another example, the claim by the Economist that the eventual publication claims to have had no involvement form WPATH is also bunk. I've read that disclaimer, and it does not say that. WPATH's involvement is stated upfront followed by a boilerplate disclaimer about how that does not neccesarily equate to an endorsement --Licks-rocks (talk) 22:46, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Are there sources which describe these events as a contract dispute, or give an explanation other than suppression of unfavourable information? Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 11:39, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

WP:BURDEN Wikipedia is not the place to publish baseless speculation, which this is if you don't have proof. I don't need to have proof, because I'm not looking to put my personal opinion in the article, I'm looking to keep yours out. --Licks-rocks (talk) 11:51, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

WP:AGF please. I’m advocating for including the coverage found in multiple reliable sources. If there are other sources to weigh against them, by all means let’s weigh them too. If there are not, then let’s focus on summarising the existing sources accurately. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 14:34, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

I did not accuse anyone of bad faith at any point in this conversation. I'll repeat what I did say: if you lack supporting evidence for a claim, it cannot be included on Wikipedia. I do not see proof here, just two papers that allege something may have happened a certain way. Neither story got traction outside of a passing mention on mumsnet-type websites. Either come with a source that proves something actually happened, or admit that you don't have it, and move on. There's not even any policy support for an attributed statement here since, as I pointed out, WP:WEIGHT is basically zero. --Licks-rocks (talk) 15:19, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

We report what RS say. Here, 3 have been presented, 2 of them peer reviewed.

What we don't do is cite those sources to say something which those sources do not say, which is what's currently on the page and needs fixing. Void if removed (talk) 16:12, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

The BMJ one is not peer revieuwed, Void. That's from their freelance journalism publication. You'll notice it has no acceptance date on the manuscript, as well as "BMJ Investigations" up top. What's the other supposedly peer revieuwed source I need to look at? I'm scouring the discussion above and haven't been able to spot it between the various tangents and distractions. --Licks-rocks (talk) 16:55, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

This issue has been covered by multiple reliable sources, including The Economist, The BMJ, and a peer-reviewed paper authored by 20 scholars. The Economist's investigation sparked significant public discussion, with nearly every respected news outlet dedicating op-eds to the topic. As editors, it is crucial that we adhere to what the sources report and avoid engaging in original research. We shouldn't presume that our own research could be more viable and enforceable on Wikipedia than established Journalists.

The sources do not characterize this as a mere contractual dispute. Rather, they explicitly state that WPATH attempted to block the publication of systematic reviews that contradicted their position and were largely successful, with only one review out of dozens making it to publication after the introduction of their approval process.

Our role is not to reinterpret or investigate the findings of these reports but to accurately and faithfully represent what the reliable sources have stated. To do otherwise would turn Wikipedia into a subjective battleground. This is why Wikipedia has rules and guidelines.

Additionally, Your claim that the BMJ article is not peer-reviewed is incorrect. If you review the document itself, specifically at the bottom of the page (under "Provenance"), it clearly states: "Commissioned; externally peer-reviewed." This is standard for investigative articles published in The BMJ. Let's not rely on inferences based on how a writer's name is written when the page itself confirms peer review status. Check here: [20] Sean Waltz O'Connell (talk) 17:22, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

I don't rely on author names, but that's not how they usually declare it. See their research articles, for comparison. It also does not change the fact that it's from their freelance journalism division.

Our role is not to reinterpret or investigate the findings of these reports but to accurately and faithfully represent what the reliable sources have stated. To do otherwise would turn Wikipedia into a subjective battleground. This is why Wikipedia has rules and guidelines. Our role is to make sure information on wikipedia is Verifiably true. It's one of the five pillars, in fact. And yes, that does, crucially, involve actually making sure your sources are speaking the truth. We don't go above "generally reliable" on WP:RSP for a reason. I've found that at least the economist article is, in this case, unreliable. Because they're verifiably misrepresenting the truth.

In adition, as several others have already pointed out, the BMJ article is a primary source, that has, as numerous others have also already pointed out, not been reported on almost anywhere else. Thus, it does not satisfy WP:WEIGHT for an attributed inclusion.

And, to top it off, the BMJ publication appears to use the Economist article I just debunked as the source for the bit we're talking about here. The segment in question is otherwise completely unsourced. Ouroboros eats his own tail. --Licks-rocks (talk) 17:57, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Exactly. Per WP:V, we must rely on what the sources state and avoid engaging in WP:OR. If reliable sources report something, it can only be countered with contradictory information (with factual more weight) from other reliable sources—not personal interpretations or subjective ideas of what is right or wrong. Another user has already pointed this out above.

Additionally, the fact that The BMJ commissioned this report does not diminish its reliability at all. As I have already noted, The BMJ is a peer-reviewed scholarly journal, and this particular article was externally peer-reviewed, as clearly indicated in the publication.

Moreover, it is plainly incorrect to claim that peer-reviewed scholarly articles are primary sources.

And in response to your elaboration: Debunking reliable sources requires a higher threshold of evidence - and is not done on an article talk page, but rather by getting your "debunking" opinion published in a reliable source of repute. Consequently, the economist has already been deemed reliable by the wider community after being subjected to forum consideration. We as users, simply report what it says. What you have presented is conjecture. Sean Waltz O'Connell (talk) 18:12, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Not what I said, not what I said, not not how any of that works, respectively. You can't use the "we publish what the sources say" argument to get out from under the fact that the source you're trying to use has provably gone to print with verifiably incorrect information. Sorry to dissapoint. Also, you misunderstand what fact and opinion are. A statement of fact, by definition, is a statement about a thing that can be verified to be either true or false. An opinion is a subjective statement that can never be verified. Me saying that the economist has misrepresented a large number of quotes in the article under discussion is, by definition, a statement of fact, not opinion. --Licks-rocks (talk) 18:28, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Could you clarify which parts of the Economist article are verifiably misrepresenting the truth, and how you verified this? Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 09:21, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, as a rule, I won't reply to people who don't read what I write. We could go in cicles for all eternity if I did. --Licks-rocks (talk) 11:16, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Per WP:SOURCE: If available, academic and peer-reviewed publications are usually the most reliable sources on topics such as history, medicine, and science. Editors may also use material from reliable non-academic sources, particularly if it appears in respected mainstream publications.

We have an academic peer reviewed publication (The BMJ), and a respected mainstream publication (The Economist). It is more than enough to support the material. Standing in opposition to that, we have your personal opinion, which is not a reliable source per Wikipedia rules. Moreover, this is from yesterday's editorial by the The Washington Post:

Internal communications from the World Professional Association for Transgender Health suggest that the group tried to interfere with a review commissioned from a team of researchers at Johns Hopkins University. [21]

It links to the Economist article that we are discussing. And it is written not by an individual journalist, but the entire Editorial Board of WaPo. Surely you don't presume to be better qualified to ascertain the veracity of the Economist report than the editors of the WaPo, Or the NYT? Or The Guardian? While editorials cannot be used for statements of facts, and only for statements of opinions, it is obvious that the journalists of the leading mainstream media outlets have no reason to doubt the Economist report, as most of them refer to it & give it its due weight. Additionally, we previously had an RFC where the Wikipedia community decided that The Economist was a reliable source. So we cannot take your personal "debunking" over the reporting by a highly respected and reliable source. Sean Waltz O'Connell (talk) 15:23, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

You're once again trying to use an opinion piece as a reliable source on factual information and, as I already explained, it isn't my "opinion" that the Economist article misrepresents information. You can quote as many sources as you want but that doesn't change the fact that the source at the base of the tree is rotten. If they're all just blindly picking up the same misquote from the Economist article (and they are) then absolutely nothing has changed. Throwaway references in opinion articles also do not count towards WP:WEIGHT, which remains the other massive issue here. --Licks-rocks (talk) 15:33, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

It's not an opinion piece. What wikipedia policy provides that a "freelance journalism division" invalidates a reliable source? I'm sorry but this is original research. The BMJ and Economist pieces speak for themselves and are sufficient for inclusion. PerseusMeredith (talk) 18:24, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

The WaPo piece is very much an opinion piece. I never said the second part, the third part is nonsense. Talk pages and especially source quality analysis on talk pages is explicitly exempt from the original research policy, and I already handled the remainder. --Licks-rocks (talk) 18:37, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

The reason I asked you to clarify is because what you wrote appears to be incorrect. You wrote:

Another example, the claim by the Economist that the eventual publication claims to have had no involvement form WPATH is also bunk. I've read that disclaimer, and it does not say that. WPATH's involvement is stated upfront followed by a boilerplate disclaimer about how that does not neccesarily equate to an endorsement

I am assuming that the one paper published by the Hopkins team is Hormone Therapy, Mental Health, and Quality of Life Among Transgender People: A Systematic Review. In the Search Strategy and Selection Criteria section of that article, paragraph 6 reads:

WPATH provided the research question and reviewed the protocol, evidence tables, and report. WPATH had no role in design, data collection, analysis, interpretation, or drafting. The corresponding author had full access to all the data and had final responsibility for the decision to submit for publication. The authors are responsible for all content, and statements in this report do not necessarily reflect the official views of or imply endorsement by WPATH.

While The Economist reads:

...The Hopkins team published only one paper after WPATH implemented its new policy: a 2021 meta-analysis on the effects of hormone therapy on transgender people. Among the recently released court documents is a WPATH checklist confirming that an individual from WPATH was involved “in the design, drafting of the article and final approval of [that] article”. (The article itself explicitly claims the opposite.)

Therefore:

1) Your claim that the Economist claimed that the eventual publication claims to have had no involvement form WPATH is false, because they didn't claim that the article claimed no involvement, they claimed that the article claimed no involvement in the design, drafting, ... and final approval of [that] article.

2) The Economist's claim checks out because the article does indeed claim that WPATH had no involvement in the design and drafting of the article, and the court documents do indeed contradict this, as you can see by matching these bolded terms in the verbatims above.

So it appears that the Economist article remains un-debunked, and thus all of the other RS coverage flowing from it remains suitable for inclusion in the article - and inclusion accurately, not in a way that buries and minimises the actual viewpoints being covered. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 21:53, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

Here's the full disclosure statement, in full:

Disclosure Summary: This review was partially funded by the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH). The authors of this manuscript are responsible for its content. Statements in the manuscript do not necessarily reflect the official views of or imply endorsement by WPATH.

So no. It does indeed not say that where I said I looked. But good catch! And no, this means you maybe have the Economist article and the BMJ source back, in terms of WEIGHT. It's not much, but it sure is more than nothing. Have you also had a chance to look at my other mentioned issues? --Licks-rocks (talk) 22:17, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

The other bit you mentioned here?:

For example the quote "has the intention to use the Data for the benefit of advancing transgender health in a positive manner" which the economist and boston globe seem to think is some big smoking gun. Uh. That's in their list of basic funding requirements. That's not a requirement for a study to be published, it's a requirement for a study to recieve funding, at which point the outcome is obviously unknown, and thus can't be manipulated.

The quote in question comes from this document (page 37), which seems to be a list not of funding criteria but of criteria for using the “Data” (which seems to be defined as anything generated by the Hopkins team). The rest of this set of policy pages makes it quite clear that this is about WPATH making itself a gatekeeper for publication.

One might argue they have every right to control access to data they paid for, and this might be true if they were a for-profit enterprise, but this is really not compatible with the spirit of open scientific enquiry, and really does look like a smoking gun for an organisation that loudly proclaims itself scientific and evidence-based. Publishing negative results is an important part of the scientific process. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 23:02, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm with you so far, but you seem to have missed the other half of that one, where I pointed out that "improves transgender health" is an absolute no-brainer for an organization whose stated goal is literally that. A negative result would still have satisfied that goal, because it would still have improved transgender health. And yes, WPATH makes themselves gatekeeper for publication here, it's their data, open access is very much a good goal to strive for in science but it is sadly often not a reality. That is also not unique to WPATH, a lot of private and public organizations both in health and elsewhere are guilty of this. The impression I get from all this is that WPATH wanted to publish this data under their own name, to publish this as WPATH, and the john hopkins people objected to that, wanting instead to publish independent from WPATH. This would have been a massive win for the john hopkins team because they would have been the first to publish such an independent analysis of the data, which was, at the time, still exclusively WPATH's. This is why I called it a basic contract dispute earlier. I'm not suggesting we should put what I just described in the article, I'm just illustrating how much of a different spin you could put on the story the Economist ended up publishing, which is a major part of why I support the current wording of the article over the suggested alternative. There just isn't the WEIGHT to support anything more. --Licks-rocks (talk) 00:39, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

The current version of the article consists mainly of direct quotes, which are WP:PRIMARY sources. We shouldn't base the article on primary material alone. Instead, we should of course rely on reliable secondary sources—such as The Economist and The BMJ—and accurately report what they state has happened.

The sources make no mention of a contractual dispute; rather, they report that WPATH attempted to suppress the publication of research that contradicted their position. It is not our role to judge whether their interpretation is correct or not. As per Wikipedia policy, we must convey what reliable secondary sources report. WP:PRIMARY is clear: any interpretation of primary source material must be supported by a reliable secondary source.

Also, the fact that nearly every mainstream outlet reacting to the controversy treats The Economist's findings as credible and sees no reason to question their conclusions speaks for itself. The evidence strongly suggests that WPATH's concern was not contractual in nature but based on inability to win lawsuits. This is made explicit in The BMJ, which reports:

“The hesitation among some WPATH SOC8 authors was that independent appraisals of the evidence would undermine legal efforts to protect affirming interventions from legislative restriction in minors. In a form that appears to have been part of WPATH’s SOC8 publication process and is now legal evidence, a chapter author wrote, ‘Our concerns, echoed by the social justice lawyers we spoke with, is that evidence based review reveals little or no evidence and puts us in an untenable position in terms of affecting policy or winning lawsuits.’ Sean Waltz O'Connell (talk) 11:04, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

PRIMARY is also clear that investigative reports and breaking news are primary sources. Alpha3031 (t • c) 06:42, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Re "has the intention to use the Data for the benefit of advancing transgender health in a positive manner", I don't find it surprising that multiple sources have called this out as suspicious, given the context. Legitimate scientific enquiry welcomes all results, because results steer the field towards refining good theories and discarding bad ones. The wording here seems to be code for "results must support our existing model of healthcare", which does not come from a scientific mindset, and hence is a significant controversy for a supposedly scientific organisation. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 18:16, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

I am utterly opposed to basing even a single word in any article here on anything that needs to be supported by the sentence "seems to be code for". We might as well start reading tea leaves. --Licks-rocks (talk) 18:23, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Those words are just my attempt at explaining why this kind of reporting restriction is scientifically dubious. Especially considering we have the motivation spelled out explicitly in the chapter author quote that @Sean Waltz O'Connell posted earlier today, it takes some extremely motivated reasoning to believe there is nothing to see here. Nevertheless, it’s your prerogative to believe that if you wish. But it’s the viewpoints in RSes which shape wiki content, not the beliefs of editors.

In the 1970s, Exxon paid its scientists to produce data on climate change, and then buried it and carried on as though they knew nothing. Maybe there was nothing to it, and they just wanted to ensure the data would only be used to advance US energy interests in a positive manner. But that’s not the viewpoint we see in RSes, and hence our ExxonMobil article covers it as a scandal. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 21:02, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

The exxon case is also massively better supported than this case, both in evidence and in reach. This case honestly reminds me more of the climategate "scandal", which, for the record has also been reported on far, far more widely. That said, I've said my piece, and this conversation is already six months long, so I'm leaving it here for someone else to pick up. --Licks-rocks (talk) 22:31, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

This talk page exchange has a lot of WP:NOR

Licks-rocks you are talking about "improves transgender health" but that's not what WPATH said.

Let's go back to what the Economist (reliable RFC: [7] ) said that WPATH said (which is also supported by court exhibits that show the statement on WPATH letterhead but we shall not WP:OR):

"Research must be “thoroughly scrutinised and reviewed to ensure that publication does not negatively affect the provision of transgender health care in the broadest sense,” it stated."

What you say, i.e. "improves transgender health" is an OUTCOME, where as what WPATH actually said i.e. "provision of transgender health care" is an OUTPUT. The goal of the medical field is to improve health outcomes. Medical research looks at no intervention (aka no provision) alongside intervention all the time. Research results may support a treatment guidelines of "no provision" as much as it may guide the how of provision. This is classic evidence-based-medicine (EBM). WPATH's statement goes against EBM practices with its policy that WPATH will only publish if it supports intervention/provision. And furthermore, this policy was issued after seeing the SR results that they commissioned from Hopkins.

Looks like there was even consensus wording earlier. Don't love it, but let's implement that, because it massively goes against WP:NPOV to exclude this. Evathedutch (talk) 03:47, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm not entirely satisfied with Raladic's compromise but I've said my bit on attribution. If it the inclination of my fellow editors to reverse the change, I would be increasingly inclined to hammer on WP:NOTNEWS. A reminder to those reading the policy on original research that This policy does not apply to talk pages and other pages which evaluate article content and sources, such as deletion discussions or policy noticeboards. Alpha3031 (t • c) 06:50, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Eva, the quotes you're talking about is currently in the article. What Raledic did was try as best as she could to only put the facts that these sources were talking about in the article (what wpath said and what Robinson said), adding in primary analysis would be highly undue as we should follow RSopinion policy on that (like what rsp recommends for the economist) and none of the primary analysis has been reported elsewhere. Now I'm not firm on the language of publishing rights (it just seems like an ok way to summarise "who got the last say on whether to publish or not") but we shouldn't pretend that Wikipedia doesn't say the bits that are quoted. I have to say it's disappointing to see people still believing that the John Hopkins team only published one review (which is what the economist claims in a very round about way) when they clearly published 2. LunaHasArrived (talk) 09:26, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

I was referring to it to refute an argument by Licks-rocks, who is conflating pro-heath with pro-provision of intervention. The conflating seems is being used to erode the arguments of others in an overall attempt to keep out prior consensus wording (just my assessment of the exchange, granted we all have our biased lenses)

The way it's written now, it's cherry picking in a misleading way. It floats away from the entire "so what" of all the media coverage.

Side but related note: given the controversy around the Rachel Levine influence on SOC 8 (court documents indicate her pressure was put on post Delphi) covered by major reliable sources. This article should not have a primary source claiming SOC 8 adhered to Delphi.

For sake of my day job, I don't want to get into rewriting it :). That opens cans of worms. I am willing to accept that parts that I don't love to support fellow editors and their consensus.

It doesn't violate WP:NOTNEWS. The sausage making of SOCs is central to what WPATH does. To write about what is in SOC 8 in this article but then to keep out the coverage of reliable sources of major issues with how SOC 8 was developed - this exclusion goes against WP:NPOV

All in all, we should reinstate the edit that was made based on consensus in late November. Evathedutch (talk) 12:26, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

You mixed up the quotes, that quote is from an email, I and Barnards were talking about the quote from the data access requirements, which does indeed say that, hence why barnards didn't object to the text of the quote. As Luna points out, The actual text of the quote you're talking about is already in the article. I see no reason to object to that being the case. Looking through the discussion as a whole, I think it's a bit much to be calling the bit of text we're arguing about here a "consensus wording". There was, at no point, a consensus for it.--Licks-rocks (talk) 12:00, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Just because something happened before your involvement, it doesn't mean it didn't happen. However, for some reason, a lone user bypassing the others in the consensus discussion, and forcing the current version has taken us back to square one. As such we need to form one - because there is no consensus for the present wording either. As mentioned,. It was forced by a single user without any consent from other involved users. I believe at this point it is time to follow the dispute resolution procedures, in order to find a resolution to this impasse. Sean Waltz O'Connell (talk) 20:44, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

It was removed the same day it was implemented and I see several users objecting to it, two the same day, at least one more the next. Before that those same users were already involved in the discussion too, so no, your version never had consensus. --Licks-rocks (talk) 21:16, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

6 users agreed on compromise wording after an ongoing discussion - that is reaching a consensus. Nontheless, What's currently in the article never had any consensus either, it was posted after circumventing the other users as it was never proposed and discussed at talk. A user just forced it by two reverts. So how do you propose we resolve this? Sean Waltz O'Connell (talk) 19:03, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

I only counted the first three disagrees I saw immediately after implementation to show that it wasn't a clear cut consensus. Either way, if you really can't live with the current wording an RFC would be the logical next step, no?

Honestly I'm not sure it's worth the circus. --Licks-rocks (talk) 21:19, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

Sorry if I am being unclear. I can't tell if I was being confusing or confusion is being sewn by others to WP:FRUSTRATE

Allow me to clarify. I am referring to what the compromise wording of late November - what Sean Waltz O'Connell just pointed to. It met wikipedia standards and should not have been reverted. Much of the subsequent back and forth also reads to me like a circus. That's all the more reason to run with the compromise wording of late November. It's not exactly what I think should be in there. I rather highlight more the departures from (WPATH's own) EBM process, but I see Void if removed's point that it would creep into editorializing, so I am willing to accept the compromise wording. Evathedutch (talk) 04:31, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Evathedutch, your comments that reads to me like a circus and accusation that people opposing inclusion are stonewalling are not appropriate for this talk page, and I object to the latter characterisation. I am asking you to please strike those parts of your comment. Bold edits are perfectly fine, but the original insertion had fundamental issues raised that have not being addressed. I am also dissatisfied witn the current wording, but the fact is there is disagreement, and those accusations towards other editors will not aid in reaching consensus. Alpha3031 (t • c) 08:30, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Oh...I chose the word "circus" because Licks-rocks (talk) used that word to characterize potential further wikipedia efforts as that. My point was IF we are going to characterize wikipedia activity as "circus" than for me that would be more the discussion since the late November. I can see how it could come off with out this context.

I didn't say anyone is "not appropriate for this talk page". That's just false. I respectfully welcome your right to object to my characterization of some of the talk page activity after the late November compromise as WP:FRUSTRATE as much as I assert my right to asses it as such.

I disagree that the November edit (or any edit) that is based in compromise wording after a substantial discussion is a "bold edit".

I have engaged in a good faith discussion with you. For example you said "I would be increasingly inclined to hammer on WP:NOTNEWS" to which I responded. "It doesn't violate WP:NOTNEWS. The sausage making of SOCs is central to what WPATH does. To write about what is in SOC 8 in this article but then to keep out the coverage of reliable sources of major issues with how SOC 8 was developed - this exclusion goes against WP:NPOV "

It is also in good faith that I am willing reinstate the compromise wording from late November. It is far from my preferred, but I respect that many editors with differing POVs came up with it. Perhaps RFC of Nov 22 vs current is the best next step; perhaps after the holidays. Evathedutch (talk) 15:53, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

I would be happy to discuss NOTNEWS further with you Evathedutch (I don't, or didn't, strongly feel the need to oppose inclusion if a reasonable compromise can be reached, but I've pointed out why some elements of attribution were not acceptable with the original insertion, and I am not inclined to repeat those arguments if nobody else is even bringing the topic up), but I reiterate that accusations of bad faith are not appropriate for an article talk page, and you have, intentionally or not, made such an accusation, which you should withdraw. accusation that people opposing inclusion are stonewalling are not appropriate for this talk page, should be read as the second clause referring to the first, the accusation that you made (that the other editors here have not stated a substantive rationale based in PAG and are not participating in good faith) is incredibly inappropriate for an article talk page and serves no purpose other than inflaming tensions. Alpha3031 (t • c) 22:01, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

I fully agree with this, and the sources are sufficient BlueBellTree (talk) 05:08, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

2nd paragraph

"7th and 8th versions of the SOC took an approach that was more evidence-based." This sentence seems possibly controversial and probably should have a high quality citation to support the claim. BlueBellTree (talk) 18:43, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Indeed, In light of what's being discussed above, this sounds a bit ironic, to say the least. Sean Waltz O'Connell (talk) 19:33, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Given SOC 1-6 apparently didn't have references, it's very safe to say that 7 and 8 are More evidence based, there are also sources in the body that agree following general lead citation rules. LunaHasArrived (talk) 23:01, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps what is meant by evidence based should also be qualified. Simply having citations does not make something evidence based in the highest sense of the phrase. Thus the sentence could be misleading. BlueBellTree (talk) 05:02, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Please read the body of the article for the sources in the future. Generally statements in the lead are uncited but because the lead is summarising the article the sources are cited in the actual article. [22] [23] These are the sources used in the article LunaHasArrived (talk) 08:41, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

I do not agree that this is explained in the body of the article. Here is what is said in the body late on citing ref 21 and 22:

"Beginning in approximately 2010, with pushing from trans activists the WPATH began publicly advocating the depsychopathologization of transgender identities in the 7th version of the SOC."

This is not talking about what it means to be evidence based.

Also references 21 and 22 here do not have anything to do with what we are talking about:

Corneil, Trevor A.; Eisfeld, Justus H.; Botzer, Marsha (September 20, 2010). "Proposed Changes to Diagnoses Related to Gender Identity in the DSM : A World Professional Association for Transgender Health Consensus Paper Regarding the Potential Impact on Access to Health Care for Transgender Persons BlueBellTree (talk) 18:33, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Can you provide a citation for the fact that SOC 1-6 did not have references and 7-8 do? BlueBellTree (talk) 18:35, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

I have broken up the sentence and rephrased the point like this for more clarity according to what has been discussed above: "The 7th and 8th versions of the SOC took an approach that was more evidence-based as references were included, which had not been the case in the 1st to 6th versions."

A citation is still needed... BlueBellTree (talk) 20:05, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

I've already left a warning on your talk page, but a basic level of competence is required for editing wikipedia in general, and this topic area in particular, asking for citations on whether something uses references, or whether it using references means it is more evidence-based, is not meeting that standard. --Licks-rocks (talk) 20:27, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Blue bell. I am shocked that you can't read the body of the article and find the sentence "the SOC 7, published in 2011, was more evidence based than previous versions" with an appropriate couple of source (the same as the ones I linked above but unfortunately we're numbered 21 and 22, instead of the 25 and 24 in the article. I still expect you to have actually clicked on the links I provided).

I have to presume this is because you simply have not checked the section titled history in the article. LunaHasArrived (talk) 20:53, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

It also already includes the line "Including being the first version to include references," there! --Licks-rocks (talk) 22:27, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Neither references 21, 22, 24 or 25 say anything about how versions 7 and 8 are more evidence based than versions 1 - 6. I have taken out the last part of the sentence as it is unsubstantiated.

I suggest a high quality and relevant reference to substantiate the point; Alternatively that the topic is expanded in a paragraph in the body where it can be explained what is meant in more details and the point can be substantiated. BlueBellTree (talk) 05:11, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

Source 24, titled management of gender dysphoria, explicitly says that one of the many changes in soc 7 was that it was evidence based, that is exactly the sort of quote you'd be wanting. Do you not have access to the full versions of the sources? LunaHasArrived (talk) 08:42, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I have removed that last part of the sentence again. I have looked at reference 24 full text and do not see what you are referring to. Before writing a phrase stating that SOC7 and 8 are more evidence based than SOC 1-6, please provide a clear and high quality citation or substantiate your point in the talk. It might be better to actually write a paragraph about this subject in the body of the article. Perhaps you can include an appropriate quotation from reference 24? BlueBellTree (talk) 14:45, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

I've warned you on your talk page against edit warring. Remove that sentence again and I personally guarantee a visit to the 3RR noticeboard or ANI. The sentence mentioned is indeed there. It's fine if you struggle to find it, you're allowed to not know things, but the moment you edit the main-space article you make it everybody else's problem and that's just not cricket. I've considered quoting the alinea for you in full but honestly the source(link 21 here) is fairly short (short enough that I'd found it in under ten seconds) and it'd leave me feeling used. Enough is enough. --Licks-rocks (talk) 15:06, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

If you search "evidence based" (with the space) it turns up as the only thing. This following quote is from a list of examples of "Major changes on SOC7" :

"The document is evidence based" [the document clearly being SOC7, it is on Pg 28 and in the final paragraphs of section 3.8.1 SOC7(2011)]

I have to say if finding these quotes from academic sources is beyond you this area of Wikipedia might not be the best for you to edit (especially if your first reaction is to remove the content instead of trying to find sources to back up the content). LunaHasArrived (talk) 15:38, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

Can you provide a citation for the fact that SOC 1-6 did not have references and 7-8 do? BlueBellTree (talk) 05:11, 15 December 2024 (UTC)