Talk:Olga of Kiev

Bulgarian origin of Olga

There is a hypothesis that Olga was a Bulgarian princess (from Pliska, and not from Pskov). She may have been the daughter of either Tsar Simeon the Great or of his deposed brother, the apostate Prince/Khan Vladimir-Rasate. Olga's presumed Royal Bulgarian origin could explain the ease with which her son, Prince Svyatoslav, managed to conquer both Danubian Bulgaria and Volga Bulgaria. --Vladko 20:58, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

I don't recall Svyatoslav to have ever conquered both Bulgarias. At most he occupied 2/3rds of Danube Bulgaria. Jotaro97 (talk) 15:36, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

Can anyone provide a source for this theory? EmilySarah99 (talk) 07:54, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

ru.wikipedia has that 78.130.157.241 (talk) 16:11, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

ru wiki is definitely not something I would advise you to believe in matters of Ukrainian history, given recent events. 109.87.86.44 (talk) 23:04, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

There is no such language "Cyrillic"

According to the most accepted version, Olga was born near Pskov (what is present day Russia) and spent most of her life and became famous in Kiev (what is present-day Ukraine). Both languages are relevant. What was the reason for your edit war with Sashazlv? Just to remove the mentioning of Ukrainian language?--AndriyK 13:11, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

I corrected and inserted a special ru/ua template I deviced some time ago just for the cases like these. Hope everyone's happy. --Irpen 17:03, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Christianity in Kyivan Rus

Was it not accepted by St.Olga in 988?

Prince of Kiev?

Surely the title in the succession box shouldn't be Prince, rather Princess or Regent. Lemmy Kilmister 09:55, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Lev Gumilev's theory

Lev Gumilev's account of Olga:

Having assumed the supreme power in 945, Olga broke with the policy of the Khazar-Rus' alliance, conducted by her predecessors. Like her grandson Vladimir, she declared in favour of the Byzantine alliance. In 949, she sent her troops to take part in the Byzantine expedition against Crete. In 957, she went to Constantinople, converted to Christianity and declared war on Khazaria. Seven years later, her youthful son, in alliance with Pechenegs and Torks, sacked Atil, Samandar, and Sarkel. At that very period, the level of the Caspian Sea rose by five meters, submerging the delta of the Volga, together with the capital of the Khazars. Ibn Haukul reports that, after sacking Samandar, the Rus' started a war against Rum and Al-Andaluz, i.e., Byzantium and Spain. Indeed, the Rus effected a landing in Galicia in 968; they sacked Santiago, killed the local bishop and were not repulsed (by Count Gonzalo Sanchez) until 971.

Any comments? What of this should be reflected in the text of the article? --Ghirla ^-трёп- 13:35, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't see here anything terribly new apart from the ides that it was Olga's initiative to break with a Rus'-Khazar alliance, but Gumilev is probably the only historian who thought that way. The rest is actually not about her. Beit Or 07:53, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Edward Gibbon section

This seems to be a simply a large quote without any processing or even marking, and with style sharply conflicting that of the previous parts of the article. Perhaps some rewriting is in order (i.e., put encompassing text and mark the quotating as such?) I'm willing to do that, provided some reason doesn't exist of keeping that section as is. IgorSF 04:12, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I suppose it should be moved to WikiSource. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 08:01, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 13:25, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was move per request as the common name, and indeed, I also tried some searches and it appears that Olga of Kiev is a few hundred times as common.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 14:43, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

---

Olga of Pskov → Olga of Kiev — The page was moved recently from without any discussion from what is the overwhelmingly used name ("Olga of Kiev", [1], [2]) to an obscure and practically not used form ("Olga of Pskov", [3], [4]). Olga certainly was from Pskov, but she is known as the princess/queen of Kiev, and commemorated accordingly. Constantine ✍ 19:31, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Question

How can anyone who murdered people become a saint?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.252.183.253 (talk) 18:29, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

That was my question. Olga was clearly blood-thirsty which was probably not unusual for the warlike time she lived in. But it's kind of crazy that someone responsible for mass murder could be made a saint simply because she converted to Christianity. 69.125.134.86 (talk) 21:53, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, it's not like she's the only one. There's a much more recent example, whose responsibility for events like Bloody Sunday (1905) is much better documented. Finstergeist (talk) 19:45, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

Well, maybe it's just a Russian thing. Making saints out of murderers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.138.95.24 (talk) 10:26, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

source for clunky claimed spelling?

Who spells it Olgha, in English? Source or it goes. And don't lie when you make changes this time, Lifeglider--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 03:41, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Sound like it might have been a transliteration, or representation of accents/dialectts. EmilySarah99 (talk) 07:58, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

Revenge for Husband's Death

The article on Igor of Kiev suggests that Olga first became upset with the Drevlins not because of their insisting she be married, but because they killed her husband:

Igor' was killed while collecting tribute from the Drevlians in 945. The Byzantine historian and chronicler, Leo the Deacon (born ca 950), describes how Igor met his death: "They had bent down two birch trees to the prince's feet and tied them to his legs; then they let the trees straighten again, thus tearing the prince's body apart."[2] Igor's wife, Olga of Kiev, avenged his death by punishing the Drevlians. The Primary Chronicle blames his death on his own excessive greed, indicating that he tried to collect tribute for a second time in a month. As a result, Olga changed the system of tribute gathering (poliudie) in what may be regarded as the first legal reform recorded in Eastern Europe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_of_Kiev

Yet here there is no mention of these even though there is an illustration at the bottom titled "Olga's revenge for her husband's death." Ileanadu (talk) 16:07, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

The poliudie is mentioned under Regency. She's famous not for avenging her husband's death, but for holding on to power and for keeping Kiev from being absorbed into rival territories. As a woman and as a grieving widow, she was expected to be weak and remarry, instead she became a ruthless bloodthirsty killer, and that's what made her a Christian saint. Oh, the irony! Feel free to add whatever you think is missing from the story. USchick (talk) 07:49, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Karpov

The link to the source is provided above (I'm talking about this edit). Noraskulk (talk) 07:08, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

Changing any mention of Kyiv from "Kiev", as well as Kyivan from "Kievan" to better fit the proper spelling of the city in English. The Old East Slavic (Kyjevu/Києвъ) reflects this spelling as well in a phonetic sense too.

As the title says. Kiev is an antiquated term that no longer reflects the reality of the naming convention of Kyiv in any official sense. Kiev is an adaptation of Musvovite Russian "Киев", which reflects Russian rule, not medieval East Slavic linguistic conventions nor respects Ukrainian independence. While there is something to say for historical contexxt, the problem here is that the historical context here was "Kyjevъ", which is much closer to Kyiv than "Kiev". The historical context for the Muscovite name finds itself only in Muscovite rule over the city from 1648 to 1918, and then from 1920 to 1991. Ukrainian culture is ancient, drawing itself back to the East Polyans, Volynians, Buzhane, and other East Slavic tribes in the area of modern Ukraine and then Rus, overshadowed in recent centuries by Muscovite imperialism. There is also a new culture war going on, with pro-Moscow editors removing from articles such as Olga of Kyiv and others the names of Ukrainian cities and settlements, including any mentions of "Kyiv" and "Kyivan". This war is also waged on the Russian language version of Wikipedia. Rather than respect modern conventions of the spoken Russian language, terms and constructions such as "Byelorussiya" and "na Ukrainye" (Белоруссия and на Украине) are considered correct, despite the former being outdated, as the official and correct way to refer to "Byelorussiya" is either Belarus or the Republic of Belarus (Беларусь/Республика Беларусь), and the latter both outdated and offensive, as the polite (and correct) construction is "v Ukrainye" (в Украине). This is a symptom of Russian chauvinism that has only grown since 2014, where Russian insistence that such frankly offensive and derisive terms are correct because it is in the official Russian lexicon, regardless if that lexicon was written entirely to serve Russian, as in Muscovite, interests, including the Russian territorial ambitions to take over Ukraine and Belarus in terms of influence and direct territorial ambitions. A note about other languages, such as German. Due to the English language's position of being an effective global lingua franca, many governments which have asked for a change in naming convention have mainly made the request for the change to be for the English variant. Weiss Rusland means Belarus and Kiew means Kyiv, but the political reality dictates that it is the English language that will be using the transliterated term, rather than "White Ruthenia/Russia" or the Muscovite term "Kiev". In the end though, this aspect no longer matters, as the English speaking world chose to respect these new conventions that were established in 1991. It's not historically dishonest to use Kyiv, but it certainly is to use "Kiev". Certainly in Russian, "Kiev" is correct, but then there are other ways that language is used to belittle Belarusian and Ukrainian identity.

Irrelevant. "Olga of Kiev" is the WP:COMMONNAME. On top of that, see Talk:Kyiv/Archive 9#RfC: Kyiv/Kiev in other articles for the consensus on using Kyiv/Kiev. Also please sign your comments. Mellk (talk) 23:05, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

Also, the old word is "Кꙑѥвъ", according to Wiktionary. I don't understand how you see it as being "much closer" to one when they are equally different. Mellk (talk) 23:08, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 March 2022

Kiev should be changed to Kyiv. 2600:8807:C2C9:7500:7D98:4149:19AF:B8DC (talk) 01:08, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. See discussion above. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 01:40, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 March 2022

Please change: Even though it would be her grandson Vladimir that would convert the entire nation to Christianity, because of her efforts to spread Christianity through Rus', Olga is venerated as a saint in the Eastern Orthodox Church with the epithet "Equal to the Apostles" and her feast day is 11 July.

To: Even though it would be her grandson Vladimir that would convert the entire nation to Christianity, because of her efforts to spread Christianity through Rus', Olga is venerated as a saint in the Eastern Orthodox Church with the epithet "Equal to the Apostles." Her feast day is 11 July.

The reason for the change is that the date of St. Olga's feast day is not because of the preceding items in the sentence (but only the fact that she has a feast day is due to the preceding items in the sentence). therefore, the suggest change resolves a potential ambiguity. Off2port (talk) 18:51, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: The page's protection level has changed since this request was placed. You should now be able to edit the page yourself. If you still seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. MadGuy7023 (talk) 11:50, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

References

Myth presented as history

This article is misleading since it portrays events which are clearly fantastical as if they are documented history. I understand that the Primary Chronicle is the only available source on Olga's life, but that doesn't make it a reliable source (and it's reliability is widely questioned). This story is clearly a folk tale, it is even written as one. Yet it is included in the "Life" section which is of a more factual nature. I believe Wikipedia standards would be better met if the story of the revenge would be transferred to a separate section under a more conservative title, such as "The Alleged Story of the Drevlins Revenge" or whatever you think would clarify to casual readers that this is a story that appears only in a source of questionable reliability without any corroboration rather then a widely accepted historic fact. נוף כרמל (talk) 09:26, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 July 2023

Change "Saint Olga of Kiev" to "Saint Olga of Kyiv". This is the proper spelling of Ukrainian Capital. F3nix411 (talk) 05:03, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 06:58, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

Please change spelling to Kyiv

Kyiv or Київ are the Ukrainian spellings. Kiev is the Soviet Russian spelling. Please correct the names of people containing "of Kiev" to reflect this. "Kievan Rus" should be "Kyivan Rus". 2604:3D08:6B7B:3650:15BC:3F05:D946:5E9 (talk) 00:40, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Princess regnant after 945 or only regent for Sviatoslav?

The article frequently calls Olga a "regent" after Igor's death in 945, but the Primary Chronicle never calls her that. There are several instances in which she is called a княгиня knyaginya or more precisely кънягыня kŭnyagynya (cognate of modern German Königin and modern Dutch koningin, more distantly English queen), the female equivalent of a князь knyaz. For example, 56.21–22 Кънязь нашь убиенъ а кънягыни наша хощеть за вашь кънязь. Our prince has been killed, and our princess wants for your prince.

It is also alleged that Olga abdicated the regency upon Sviatoslav's coming of age sub anno 6472 (964). Although Sviatoslav is indeed repeatedly referred to as a князь from that year onwards, there is no indication that Olga was no longer a княгиня. For example, in the narrative of the Pecheneg Siege of Kiev (968) sub anno 6476 (968; pages 65.19–67.20), page 66 lines 17 to 19 state: Подъступимъ заутра въ лодьяхъ, и попадъше кънягыню и къняжичѣ, умъчимъ на сю страну. Cross & SW 1953 rendered this as Tomorrow we shall approach by boat, and after rescuing the Princess and the young Princes, we shall fetch them over to this side. We should note here that the young Princes are her aforementioned grandsons, Yaropolk, Oleg, and Vladimir, so calling her a "princess" makes her no more a reigning monarch than her three grandsons, but the same goes for calling her son Sviatoslav a "prince" from 964 onwards. In this context, that may merely indicate that they were members of the reigning dynasty. (Sidenote: Cross&SW end her life story with a priest who performed the last rites over the sainted Princess, but the text in 68.6–7 says презвутеръ, и тъ похорони блаженую Ольгу. a priest, and he buried the blessed Ol'ga. There is no "princess" in the original. Similarly, 61.12 says И поклонивъши ся And she bowed down/herself instead of The Princess bowed.)
The last passage mentioning Olga as a princess that I was able to find is in the so-called Rus'–Byzantine Treaty (945) sub anno 6453, Искусеви Ольгы кънягыня Iskusevi Olga kŭnyagynya Cross&SW: Isgaut for the Princess Olga. This was when Igor' was supposedly still alive, as he is mentioned several times in the text of the supposed treaty as well, so that unless we assume a co-reign / co-regency here, this should be understood as princess consort or queen consort. Nevertheless, it is remarkable that Olga has her own representative in a supposedly legally binding treaty between sovereign states; that suggests she had political and diplomatic authority and was not just the "wife of", even before her husband died.

Descriptions such as in page 67.23 that have Sviatoslav saying (just before Olga's death) яко то есть среда земли моеи for this (Pereyaslavets on the Danube) is the core of my land do not necessarily denote his "ownership" of Kievan Rus' either. By that logic, we should recognise Olga's "ownership" of Kievan Rus' in page 62.7–8: И иде съ миръмь въ землю свою, и приде къ Кыеву. And she returned in peace to her own country, and arrived in Kiev. Incidentally, right after that, Olga is compared to the Queen of Ethiopia: Се же бысть яко при Соломанѣ: приде цьсарица Ефиопьская къ Соломону, literally And it was as it was in Solomane's time: the ts'saritsa Ephiop'skaya came to Solomon. Cross&SW: Thus it was when the Queen of Ethiopia came to Solomon. Apparently she was not just a regent or comparable to a queen, but comparable to a reigning tsarina. NLeeuw (talk) 09:31, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

I think the first thing that needs to happen here is a lot of Wikification (which I've already begun):

• Standardisation of refstyle
• Removing duplicative information
• Avoiding long quotations or moving them to the footnote section
• Avoiding relying directly and uncritically on WP:PRIMARY sources such as the Primary Chronicle; they should be interpreted by scholarly, secondary WP:RS (I've set up the Bibliography section to make the distinction between primary and secondary sources clearer)
• Removing unreliable sources in general if reliable sources exist that can support the same claims

Once this is done, I think I'll consider seriously the option of splitting off the Conversion and Derevlian Uprising sections, as they are topics extensively discussed in scholarly studies and popular culture, and probably require their own textological / text-critical analysis (instead of just endlessly quoting verbatim whatever Cross&SW 1953 say, see above). NLeeuw (talk) 16:07, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Coherence with her date of birth

How could Olga be born as early as 890 if her son Sviatoslav was born around 943 ? Being a mother through natural conception at 53 is extremely rare today ; in the middle ages it seems quite impossible... FrenchieWolf (talk) 04:17, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 December 2024

Some potentiel improvements:
1. Links to some sources:

• Gasparov, Boris; Raevsky-Hughes, Olga (1993). California Slavic Studies. Vol. XVI: Slavic Culture in the Middle Ages: https://archive.org/details/slavicculturesin0016unse
• Talbot, Alice-Mary; Sullivan, Dennis F., eds. (2005), The History of Leo the Deacon: Byzantine Military Expansion in the Tenth Century: https://archive.org/details/talbot-sullivan-2008-history-leo-the-deacon/page/155/mode/2up
• Omeljan Pritsak, "When and Where Was Ol'ga Baptized?": https://diasporiana.org.ua/ukrainica/13504-pritsak-o-when-and-where-was-ol-ga-baptized/
• Curta, Florin (8 July 2019). Eastern Europe in the Middle Ages (500–1300) (2 vols): https://archive.org/details/eastern-europe-in-the-middle-ages-500-1300-2-vols-by-florin-curta-z-lib.org/page/518/mode/2up

2. In "Relations with the Holy Roman Emperor"

Source for the sentence "The same data is repeated in the annals of Quedlinburg and Hildesheim.[citation needed]": Dimitri Obolensky, « The baptism of Princess Olga of Kiev », Byzantina Sorbonensia « Philadelphie et autres études »,‎ 1984, p. 159-176 (ISBN 978-2-85944-079-4, https://books.openedition.org/psorbonne/2159, §19.

3. In "Sainthood"

The statement "The honorific title "Equal to the Apostles" was first given to her on the initiative of Archimandrite Innokenty (Prosvirnin) in the 1980s." appears to be wrong. It is in contradiction with the previous statement "In 1547, nearly 600 years after her 969 death, the Russian Orthodox Church officially named Olga a saint, equal-to-the-apostles."

However, the source cited here Eastern Europe in the Middle Ages (500–1300) doesn't confirm that the title "equal-to-the-apostles" was granted in 1547, it only says the cult was officially recognized in 1547-1549. I believe a better source can be found here, however in russian: https://azbyka.ru/kanonizaciya-svyatyx-v-russkoj-pravoslavnoj-cerkvi, which describes the decisions made during the 1547 Macarius council and cites Olga as already "equal-to-the-apostles" before the council added 39 more saints (see for context Canonization in the Russian Orthodox Church#Hagiology).

Thanks.
Jethro8 (talk) 08:14, 9 December 2024 (UTC)